Coming up next

Shane speaks with Rev. William H. Lamar IV, pastor of Metropolitan AME Church in Washington DC. After their church was the target of vandalism and racial terrorism, they sued the Proud Boys and won a major victory over racially-motivated hate crimes. They also now own the trademark for Proud Boys who can no longer operate under that name. It's a powerful conversation about faithful witness and moral courage.

Shane talks with his friend Greg Boyd, author of The Myth of the Christian Nation. They talk about Jesus, and empires, and what it means to be people who would rather die than kill.