For generations, the natural world has been somewhere we go for refuge: to quiet the noise, regain perspective and feel held by something larger than ourselves. But what happens when rising heat, wildfire smoke and disappearing wildlife make that refuge itself feel less safe?Professor of philosophy Roger Gottlieb, author of Nature Spirituality and Environmental Crisis, explores ecological grief, the loss of certainty, and what spirituality might look like without a guaranteed happy ending. Can gratitude survive without certainty? Do we need hope, or courage?Afterwards, Tim and Joy reflect on hope, small acts of care, and whether “It’s enough that it ever was” lands differently across generations.Interview starts at 11m 12sBooks, quotes & links from this episode →Nomad is an independent, ad-free podcast funded by its listeners. If these conversations matter to you, please consider supporting us on Patreon.

Released on 23 Oct 2026