Can morality be objective without God? In this thought-provoking episode of Unbelievable, host John Nelson brings together Christian writer Caleb Woodbridge and Objectivist thinker Thomas Walker-Werth for a deep clash over reason, self-interest, human dignity and the basis of right and wrong. Is morality grounded in God’s nature, or can human reason alone discover universal moral truths? Drawing on Christian theology, Ayn Rand’s Objectivism, Aristotle, Pascal and questions of sacrifice, flourishing and human value, the conversation explores whether morality is something we receive, discover or construct. Along the way, they tackle original sin, rational self-interest, charity, suffering, obligation and the future vision each worldview offers for society. If you’ve ever wondered whether ethics needs God, or whether secular reason can carry the full weight of morality, this debate will give you plenty to chew on.

Thomas Walker-Werth is managing editor of The Objective Standard, a journal of culture and philosophy, and author of Reason for Living: A Rational Approach to Living Your Best Life. He also writes on science fiction as Thomas W. Anderson.
Caleb Woodbridge is a Christian writer, editor and cultural apologist. He writes at Bigger on the Inside and hosts the Imaginative Discipleship podcast.

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Released on 26 Mar 2026