What if the biggest debates about marriage, gender, and family have been framed around the wrong people?

In this eye-opening conversation, Luke Martin is joined by Katy Faust, Founder and President of Them Before Us, a global movement arguing that children not adults should be at the centre of family policy and cultural change. Katy challenges some of the most deeply held assumptions of modern life, asking what happens when adult fulfilment is prioritised over the rights and needs of the young.

The show explores the differences between men and women, why mothers and fathers matter in distinct ways, and how feminism, divorce, and church leadership shape children’s lives. Luke and Katy do not shy away here from today’s most controversial issues - gay marriage, surrogacy, IVF, sperm and egg donation, and the claim that “love makes a family.” Drawing on natural law, social science, and lived experience, Katy makes a powerful case that marriage and family are first matters of justice for children. Her book Them Before Us: Why We Need a Global Children’s Rights Movement (Post Hill Press, 2021), co-authored with Stacy Manning, expands this argument in depth.
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Released on 27 Jan 2026