For many of us, faith was handed to us as certainty: right beliefs, right answers, and a God who could be clearly defined, defended and explained. But what happens when certainty begins to fall away? In this conversation, Carmen Acevedo Butcher returns to Nomad to explore The Cloud of Unknowing, the anonymous medieval text that insists God “can be loved but not thought.”Together we ask what it might mean to find a firmer foundation in mystery than in control. Carmen reflects on contemplation as a way of knowing love, befriending our restless minds, loosening our grip on language, and learning to live with greater kindness, humility and courage in an anxious age. Along the way, she helps us see that unknowing need not be a failure of faith, but perhaps one of love’s deepest invitations.After the interview, Nomad hosts Tim and Anna wonder what it means to stand on the “firm foundation of mystery” rather than certainty, and why that can feel both unsettling and deeply nourishing. They also explore Lectio Divina as a practice of looking again — at scripture, poetry, relationships, politics, and the parts of reality we’re tempted to skim past.Interview starts at 14m 40sBooks, quotes, links →The creation of Nomad’s thoughtful, ad-free content is entirely funded by our equally thoughtful and wonderful listeners. By supporting us, you gain access to Nomad’s online spaces—like the Beloved Listener Lounge, Enneagram Lounge, and Book Club—as well as bonus episodes such as Nomad Contemplations, Homegrown Conversations, and Nomad Revisited.If you’d like to join our lovely community of supporters, head over to our Patreon page. You might even be rewarded with a Nomad pen or our coveted Beloved Listener mug!If a monthly commitment isn’t possible right now, a one-off donation is always deeply appreciated—you can do that here.Looking to connect with others nearby? Check out the Listener Map or join our Nomad Gathering Facebook group.And if you're up for sharing your own story, we regularly post reflections from listeners on our blog—all with the hope of fostering deeper understanding, connection and supportive relationships. If you'd like to share your story on the blog, contact us for more information here.

Released on 25 Sep 2026